[PUP] Fantale
Highlan875 at aol.com
Highlan875 at aol.com
Thu Dec 25 10:31:51 EST 2008
This Fantail 49 is only one of nine imported into the US from the
renowned Tran world shipyard in Taiwan. This economical trawler features a
wonderful blend of tradition as well as practicality. A fuel burn of 25 gals a "Day"
is sure to please the most frugal yachtsman. Insulation and soundproofing is
excellent. Oversized 15kW generator handles all needs with ease and quiet.
The fantail was designed to be a beautiful, and efficient cruising yacht, her
hull is very easily driven. There is 3500 pounds of ballast in the keel which
keeps the motion gentle and gives a righting moment past 120 angle of heel.
The standard finish of the Fantail is one of the highest in the industry. The
thought that went into her design is obvious to the discerning yachtsman.
For additional information or to arrange a showing, contact Joe Egeberg at
Yacht Brokers of Daytona.
Contact _Yacht Brokers, Inc._ (http://yachtworld.com/palmcoastyachts) .
645 S. Beach St.
Daytona Beach, FL 32114 USA
Dear Patrick and Tad:
Thank you for all your feedback.
You'll see above the information we get regarding the vessel.
Yesterday i was able to correspond with Steve Davis about the design and
stability of the fantail.
Here is his email:
Hi Jim,
Happy Holidays to you and your family too.
So many inaccuracies in the information presented. I did the conceptual
design and initial styling on this design. Rob Ladd drew her lines and did all
the hydrostatics and my good friend, Bill Scales who worked for Jack Sarin
and later on much larger designs at Crescent Beach, refined my concept and
really made her work aesthetically. These ARE exceptional boats. There would
have been a lot more of them but the builder got greedy and refused to pay
royalties to those of us who invested so much but there were I believe over 12
built and Rob saw one for sale at the Duessledorf show 10 years ago. My
friend, Jim Mann who imported Camper and Nicholson yachts took on the Fantail and
sold all except the first boat and I believe the one you are looking at.
Most of the boats sold were delivered to the East Coast.
The nature of this design is, essentially, a true trawler hull form. We
designed her to be extremely efficient and in fact she requires only 28 shp to
make hull speed. She has considerable stability and, in fact the fly bridge
version was more comfortable as the moment of inertia was increased which
reduced the period of roll. Adding a deck box up top or two would help or even a
heavier dink. But remember, this is essentially a sailboat hull with
ballast. I don't know Patrick Willard but adding more ballast would be a big
mistake. I did regret that we didn't add a chine to her lines back aft which would
have given her initial stability; the lack of which is typical in sailboats
but not so typical in the new trawler market dominated by Grand Banks and now
Nordhavn. These folks were merciless in their criticism of the very
capable hull form because it was to their advantage to do so. My one experience
with a savvy owner was Don Crowhurst. I sold him hull no. 1 and he used it to
travel from California to Alaska for three or four years. Don had been the
head football coach at Cal Poly for a lot of years and retired with his wife
to cruise the West Coast with their cats. He named the boat Feliner. He
first owned a Nordhavn that burnt due to a faulty dry exhaust installation and
his praise of the Fantail exceeded even what he thought was possible. I would
put you in touch with him but he passed away several years ago. I doubt if
anyone used their boat more than Don. We discussed the reality of stability
and he said it was a matter of seamanship. Like a sailboat, you don't want
to take seas beam on but she is fairly comfortable quartering them. Don said
he would watch his weather and go at the best times and he wasn't afraid of
"tacking" when conditions called for it. He told me that he and his wife
were always more rested and comfortable than their peers in the typical chined
vessels as their motion is very snappy at sea while certainly more stable
initially. There is a price to pay for this initial stability in comfort
offshore. For someone who understands the hull form, this is not a problem but
for those who don't, they were frightened by stepping aboard and having the
boat move to their weight, Never bothered the sailors but the neophyte power
boat guys and maybe more importantly their wives, were often overly concerned
because of lack of knowledge.
I thought she would benefit from active stabilizers and we designed for them
but they are expensive and are only effective at over 6 knots plus the
additional wetted surface is more drag so efficiency goes down.
Paravanes are an option but you have the expense of rigging and the risk of
damage if the loads are not sufficiently designed for. Not for everyone. I
liked Don's approach. KISS. Seamanship.
The price is very fair. She is easily a $400,000 boat. I'd make certain
her engine and drive train are in perfect condition but Jim Mann had designed
and installed in several Fantails he sold, an auxiliary drive system off the
generator via hydraulics. Since she requires so little hp to move her, this
was quite effective as well as pretty inexpensive.
If you have had experience with true displacement hull forms and have
experience offshore, I believe you will love the Fantail. Like all designs she is
a compromise of design. Were we to do it over, she probably would have a
modified chine aft to help her initial stability but that would be only for
marketing purposes. I think she is everything we hoped she would be from a
design standpoint.
Feel free to be in touch if you feel the need.
Best,
Steve
Money Yoga is Consciously Transforming People's Relationship with Money.
Money Yoga Seminar Series
In a message dated 12/25/2008 12:00:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Fantale (Highlan875 at aol.com)
2. Re: Fantale (Tad Roberts)
3. Re: Fantale (Patrick Gerety)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 11:09:16 EST
From: Highlan875 at aol.com
Subject: Re: [PUP] Fantale
To: passagemaking-under-power at lists.samurai.com
Message-ID: <d56.16e4b202.3683b8ac at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Thank you Patrick for your informative feedback.
We researched that there is 3500 pounds of ballast in the keel which keeps
the motion gentle and gives a righting moment past 120 angle of heel. I'm
not
sure if this ballast was increased as the designer suggested.
We were also told that the Transworld 50' Fantale Trawler burns approx. 25
gallons a day with a range of about 1,700 miles.
Your feedback was extremely helpful about the roll. This is a concern
especially since the boat had passive stabilizers added a few years ago. As
you can
imagine it will be challenging to experience the roll during the inspection
and buying process. This is a concern right now.
The appointments, hull materials, mechanicals all appear as you suggest
first class. Especially since the boat seems to have been loved.
Again, we really appreciate your feedback and now have some serious
considerations to resolve.
Jim Hughes
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 08:13:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Patrick Gerety <alohaboat at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [PUP] Fantail
To: Passagemaking Under Power List
<passagemaking-under-power at lists.samurai.com>
Message-ID: <755042.17265.qm at web35904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
----- Original Message ----
From: "Highlan875 at aol.com"
<Highlan875 at aol.com>
To: passagemaking-under-power at lists.samurai.com
Sent:
Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:35:22 AM
Subject: Re: [PUP] Fantale
>Any
feedback on the fan tale design trawler? IE: TransWorld.
Better known as the
Fantail 50 trawler. These boats were built in Taiwan at the Transworld
yard.
They were beautifully appointed and nicely finished. All the materials
and
equipment aboard were first class. They have a lot of neat details like a
hot
and cold sink in the engine room for washing up after servicing the systems
there. As I recall, there were only 10 or 11 of them built. The biggest
problem with the full displacement hull is that it is almost completely
round
in cross section (very little turn at the chine). They got the reputation
for
being very rolly even while at the dock. I was on one at a boat show
several
years ago and there were about 6 or 7 people aboard and you had to hold onto
something even while tied to the dock. They do not carry enough fuel to be
a
serious open ocean cruiser. They are best suited as a coastal cruiser. In
my opinion, they require active fin stabilizers while under way and flopper
stoppers while at anchor for stability. If you want to pursue long distance
cruising, you will have to figure out how to add more fuel capacity (but
that
would further complicate the hydro dynamics). I talked to the designer of
the
Fantail 50, the marine illustrator Steve Davis, and he felt the boat would
benefit from more ballast. As you can see, all of these considerations
starts
to involve a complete redesign of the hull.
I really love the design and
finish of this boat. I seriously con_sidered purchasing one about 10 or 12
years ago. However, the drawbacks mentioned above made me look for
alternatives. I'm happy I did.
Patrick
Willard 40PH
ALOHA
La Paz, MX
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 10:38:36 -0800
From: "Tad Roberts" <tadroberts at shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [PUP] Fantale
To: "'Passagemaking Under Power List'"
<passagemaking-under-power at lists.samurai.com>
Message-ID: <7au4gf$1b93eo at pd4mo1so-svcs.prod.shaw.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Jim,
The likelihood that the Fantail 50 will have positive stability anywhere
near 120 degrees of heel is slim to impossible. Typical sailing yachts of
these (50' by 15.33') dimensions would have an angle of vanishing stability
of about 110 degrees. These are boats with substantial (and deep) outside
ballast keels and no high deckhouse. In this size boat 3500 pounds of
ballast is a drop in the bucket, four times that might start to make a
difference in VCG height. But still the boat is so shallow that the ballast
can't be very deep. The shallow draft, wide beam, and high deckhouse will
add up to an angle of vanishing stability of approximately 80 degrees.
When anyone states stability data they must show some documentation,
otherwise it's just sales talk. The stability data must show a curve of
righting arms at a given displacement and VCG height. Usually stability
curves are given at several "load conditions". The first load condition
might be "light ship", this is the complete boat without stores, crew,
liquids, or owner's items aboard. The second condition should be departure
or full load. This is the complete boat with everything aboard including
all tanks (except black and grey water) full. Normally this is the heaviest
(largest displacement) and lowest VCG, thus the highest stability. The final
load condition is "worst case" or arrival condition. In this case the tanks
are at 10 percent, stores are depleted, but crew and owner's items are
aboard. This means the boat is floating high in the water with a high VCG.
Worst case stability is the final criteria.
The stability of your boat safeguards the lives of you and your crew, thus
it is worth paying attention to. The correct data for your boat can only be
ascertained by the input of proven information. The vertical height of G,
the center of gravity for the entire boat, is subject to much guessing.
This is done because actually measuring the height of G is an elaborate
undertaking. It is done by conducting what's called an "Inclining
Experiment". This involves heeling your boat with controlled weights moved
a measured distance and taking measurements of the angle. This data along
with the hull lines and current floatation are the inputs required to arrive
at real stability that applies to your actual boat. It is not good enough to
state that an inclining has been done on another similar boat. These boats
are now 20 years old and many changes (additions) have occurred. There may
also be hidden differences in construction that can throw data off.
The Fantail 50 has always appeared to me to be an unhappy vessel, to my eye
they appear top heavy with too large and high a deckhouse. Also someone
miscalculated the weights and they all appear noticeably down by the stern.
Be aware that fuel consumption will be quite a bit more than 25 gpd at 8
knots, perhaps double that. To get the 1700 miles you will need to slow
down to 6 knots or less.
All the best,
Tad Roberts
www.tadroberts.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: passagemaking-under-power-bounces at lists.samurai.com
[mailto:passagemaking-under-power-bounces at lists.samurai.com] On Behalf Of
Highlan875 at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 8:09 AM
To: passagemaking-under-power at lists.samurai.com
Subject: Re: [PUP] Fantale
We researched that there is 3500 pounds of ballast in the keel which keeps
the motion gentle and gives a righting moment past 120 angle of heel. I'm
not
sure if this ballast was increased as the designer suggested.
We were also told that the Transworld 50' Fantale Trawler burns approx. 25
gallons a day with a range of about 1,700 miles.
Jim Hughes
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 11:44:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Patrick Gerety <alohaboat at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [PUP] Fantale
To: Passagemaking Under Power List
<passagemaking-under-power at lists.samurai.com>
Message-ID: <8025.45131.qm at web35902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
----- Original Message ----
From: "Highlan875 at aol.com"
<Highlan875 at aol.com>
To: passagemaking-under-power at lists.samurai.com
Sent:
Wednesday, December 24, 2008 9:09:16 AM
Subject: Re: [PUP] Fantale
>We
researched that there is 3500 pounds of ballast in the keel which keeps
>the
motion gentle and gives a righting moment past 120 angle of heel. I'm not
>sure if this ballast was increased as the designer suggested.
Jim, I
believe that the righting moment of 120 deg. and 1700 mile range are,
unfortunately, sales hyperbole in my opinion. The Fantail 50 is listed at
42,500 lbs disp. 3500 lbs ballast would be a ballast/displacement ratio of
8%. My boat has a ballast/displcement ratio of 21%. I don't have 120 deg.
stability. Ballast/displacement ratio is NOT the absolute indicator of
stability, but only one of many factors to consider.
The ballast was never
increased during the production of the Fantail 50. The designer told me he
tought the ballast should have been increased several years after it went out
of production.
>We were also told that the Transworld 50' Fantale Trawler
burns approx. 25
>gallons a day with a range of about 1,700 miles.
Well
let's run those numbers. The Fantail 50 lists fuel capacity at 520 gallons.
If you divide 520 by 25, you have 20.8 days till all empty. 20.8 days is
499.2 hours. If you cover 1700 miles in 499.2 hours, then you have an
average
speed of 3.4 knots!
Let's figure it another way. If you divide 1700 by 520
fuel capacity you get 3.3 nautical mpg. If you burn 25/24 or 1.04 gph,
then multiple 3.3 x 1.04 and again you come up with 3.4 knots!
These numbers
are theortically possible but 3.4 knots in a trawler is little more than
drifting with the currents.
My gut feeling is that you will get about a 1200
to 1400 mile range at 6 to 6.5 knots with no generator or stabilizers,
burning about 2.5 to 3 gallons per hour, or 70 gal. per day. Running
stabiliz_ers and a generator could reduce these numbers.
>Again, we really
appreciate your feedback and now have some serious
>considerations to
resolve.
Jim, I am not trying to talk you out of this boat. I just want you
to have realistic expectations before plunking your money down. This may be
the perfect boat for you, but be informed of its capabilities and
limitations.
Good fortune
Patrick
Willard 40PH
ALOHA
La Paz, MX
------------------------------
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