[PUP] Any suggestion - or PPM should die ?

[hannu venermo]

Well - that seems to have perked the discussions ... !

So far, I requested opinions, experiences and suggestions, and some 
basis/experience thereof.
Instead, I seem to have received 6 pages of directed-mail with a 
somewhat negative tone, and no suggestions ?

Lets's see;

Ross A. - tankage is needed - I agree.
Says radar is needed - ;(
Junks the "junk" - ;)

Ken Williams -
No suggestions,
Also says radar is needed.
Disputes the Nordhavn stuff -except kind of, somewhat, not.
Ken - You have a great website ! I enjoy Your posts.
You have the best research/rational decisions of any passagemaker I know 
of. Please keep it up.
$$ - Maybe You are making the correct choice for You ?
Probably, in my opinion. I hope so.

John M - Likewise enjoy Your posts.
No suggestions.
High usage in production boats - nonsense.
Out of 300 boats, 1 M miles in 5 years ?
Note that the pennant program only captures the ones who trawler - not 
the 2/3 who stay home. Average is average, not average of travellers.
Does not like me to criticise too-expensive junk. The sub zero would be 
an example.

Valerie -
Likes camraderie  -good for You !
No suggestions.

Bob E-
Agrees with me.
Notes that people who buy expensive stuff hate for anyone to criticize it.
Agrees on "apparent systems".

On value, cheap and price;
I have bought and used much more expensive stuff, than yachts, many 
times for a long time. I worked on 60 M$ systems. Many of my tools I 
owned were 150k$ each.
And I still criticized the manufacturers for selling junk ! (Most did, 
and still do).

General;
$$ - People buy whatever they want.
Experience - I agree with You very much. Everyone starts somewhere and 
gains experience. Those who travel and trawler, gain experience in it.
But most buyers do not have that experience when they start, or do they ?

Many people are conditioned to buy "brand". That why the marine industry 
sells "brand" rather than quality.
In a sea of relative quality, everyone picks the best option they can. 
This does not mean that they pick from good or excellent options available.
This used to apply esp. to the US, although over the last 10 years the 
same unfortunate tendency has spread to Europe.

That does not mean that the production boat people are making the right 
choices. It does not mean that they are building the right thing. It 
does not mean that they are doing a good job. And it does not make their 
products inherently safe, fit-for purpose and / or reliable.

I have a few questions for all of You with production boats.

Do the people with high-value production boats believe there is 
something wrong in criticizing poor installations, building practices etc. ?
Do you think that these boats should need large amounts of expensive 
maintenance and parts ?
Do You believe that its understandable to have failures, errors, poor 
installations, leaky seals, shoddy paint, poor electrical schemes, 
hard-to-reach installations etc. ?

Do You believe that by paying for this maintenance, as You then solve 
the problem for Yourselves, You are getting a good deal ?

I have reason and experience for my opinions.
Now, in my experience, the reason manufacturers get away with poor 
products in the engineering fields is lack of know-how on the part of 
buyers. This certainly applied to PC4s, IT and telecommunications. Most 
database and telco stuff is the same - poor ridiculously expensive junk.
The base reason is that the guy buying it does not pay for it - nor is 
he resposible for it when it goes wrong, as he just says "oh we buoght 
cisco or hp or ibm or oracle or whatever - its the best stuff, so its 
certainly not my fault".

When I did IT stuff (or do), I always knew more about it than the sales 
people. Usually more than their tech people. At the end of the day, I 
got great service, great products, and successfully installed very large 
and very expensive complex systems for a lot of money. That run 
extremely well, very cheaply, very profitably. And I always got paid on 
results, or owned the biz. The manufacturers fixed a lot of expensive 
errors on their part, at their dime, invested a great deal of expensive 
effort on doing it right - and we usually became their biggest customer 
in that business sector or country.
Sometime, I had to change manufacturers 4-5 times, until they were 
willing to fix *their failures*.

I would like to make the humble suggestion that when I criticize 
something, maybe it because there is something wrong with it ?
And I would also like to offer that I have never criticized anyone 
personally - I certainly feel no need for that.

I believe the PPM is a great thread.
However, if we are not going to get suggestion, ideas and examples, how 
can we proceed ?